RE: Bailment
JALLEN has actually done us a favor by providing a very astute and accurate representation of the principle on which court cases are decided. So many times, we read threads which are cries for justice and most posters then subsequently declare that the shop or repair facility is "automatically" responsible for the loss. Reasonable care having been provided, a shop IS NOT then automatically responsible. What is "reasonable" is the job of the judge or jury and it's most often framed out so that a decision is very logical.
Does it get reported (media) so that we can understand what happened? Obviously not, else there would not be such a confusion that shows up in the declarations of many posters in this forum. Even tho the legal term "bailment" has been passed on to us from the English court system, it's never been noticed by most of us. My introduction to the term occured 58 years ago when I entered the casualty insurance field in claims. It rattled around in my head and finally made sense and it's been the turning point with many claims that I've seen since that time. It's still the "law" with the courts.....tho I confess that it's still a term that most have never had to wrestle with. That's why JALLEN did us all a favor by posting it as plainly as I've ever read it. If you're interested in TRUTH, re-read it.
RE: Renting Out RV??
Check with your insurance company and your attorney.
-Tom
As a recently retired insurance broker, I like the way that Tom has replied. Most insurer exclude all coverage (liability and physical damage to the coach) in the situation that you propose. Other that the heartache that one would have of a badly damaged coach (when returned) just what provision is there for the payment for damages? How ironclad (your attorney will know) is the indemnification clause ("hold harmless") in the contract? I think your attorney will also recognize that you're probably being offered a contract that tends to favor the other guy, not you. Have you checked the organization out to determine their ability to pay? We all have credit ratings, you know.
Like the old(conservative)football coach once said..."seven things can happen when you throw the football and six of them are bad"...you should then ask yourself, too, if it's so damned profitable for the owner in this situation, why isn't that guy an owner himself?
RE: Hoping to get off cheap from blow out damage....
Many insurers consider this a "COLLISION" claim, so anything over your deductible would be covered...."Collision with a roadbed or anything thrown up against the vehicle" is language commonly used in claims. This is just a thought as your lead line seemed to inquire as to how you could minimize your loss.
RE: SD Registrations and New SD tax being considered
State governments already get revenues for road repair/construction from their taxes at the fuel pump.....and now SD is considering "double dipping" by taxing mileage "at the vehicle"?
Double taxation can ramp-up to some real problems when/if the NATIVES GET RESTLESS.
RE: Good Sam VIP Insurance
I like CM's answer....as a recently retired insurance broker I recall the discussion that I had with a large client who was going to Europe and who intended to store his BMW sports car INSIDE a storage building. He insisted that he wanted to suspend coverage for the three months he was in Europe. I reluctantly suspended coverage and a couple of months into his visit a stolen truck crashed into the storage building and did $15,000 damage to his BMW.
When he returned from Europe he mounted an arguement (a regular tirade!) that I should have ignored his request. Ahem, just who's running the show? I showed him the two letters that he received that cautioned against suspending coverage. He remained grumpy for a couple of years.
In the insurance business, his decision is known as "penney wise, pound foolish" and that phrase was coined many years ago in English law.
RE: Quebec City questions ! !
In the Lower Town, you'll find the Marche Du Vieux-Port , a large market where you can find wonderful cheeses, bread, fruit and bottle of wine which combine for a great picnic basket.
The Botique Aux Memoires Antiquites, within walking distance from that market, has antiques and is located in an area that you'll want to wander around the unique streets.
Quartier Petit-Champlain offers a "time capsule" feeling of being in a French country village and contains boutiques, art galleries and other spots that will fill an afternoon.
We love the area and are headed back in mid-August. It's not a place where you will combine excitement and tight purse....sit down for a coffee when you can find a table on that sidewalk and pull out $10 (US)and explain to yourself that you're really in Paris.
RE: Class A insurance
If it wasn't paying for my toys, (and our RV habits), I would not be coming in to the Agency.... Company / agent relations are going to the toilet. The business is not nearly as fun and interesting as it was even 15 years ago.
Litigation is a growing plague that is taking it's toll on all parts of society, yet people still think it is not their money..... Modern policies have longer lists of exclusions, than they do of coverages...
E&O = Eating Our profits.
I can't wait to see my way to "retire"...........
I retired when I turned 80 and still have "insurance broker" dreams and...I have to admit it...I loved every working day from the day I entered the business in 1950. Yes, I know that this isn't "normal" but over the years I divorced myself from all but the larger commercial accounts and my relationship with those clients is a relationship that I'll always treasure. We were also very picky about just what accounts we wanted to serve in our office and if you persist in narrowing your choices (clients) it can get to be very lucrative and interesting. Our companies also loved our specialties and we have good loss experience with those insurers. My role is now showing up for parties and anniversaries...I'm the first retiree in our office.
RE: Class A insurance
Choke, gasp, sob....thanks, guys for postings that would tend to vindicate my earlier remarks. You must realize that I'm very very happy to be out of the field and content to simply contribute my 2 cents worth once in awhile.
Yes Robert, I understand--no phones, no threats, no whines, no anger, no chronic dissatisfaction, no re-plowing coverages and exclusions, and especially no company mid-level sales managers asking for "more, More, MORE!".
I'd like to add my growing unhappiness with OVERSTATED QUALIFICATIONS from many job applicants. Poor spelling, poor grammar, invented job responsibilities at the last position....but, hmmmm, I fooled them with some choice questions about how they would address or solve a number of classic insurance problems. In my office, I had the "final check" with applicants as I prepared to talk only about what kind of professionalism they would show when push came to shove. I had a couple of them who excused themselves and never returned as "the jig was up" and they realized it.
I think that job training and attracting good people to the field is the biggest problem in the casualty insurance.
RE: Class A insurance
Choke, gasp, sob....thanks, guys for postings that would tend to vindicate my earlier remarks. You must realize that I'm very very happy to be out of the field and content to simply contribute my 2 cents worth once in awhile.
RE: Class A insurance
Though many service centers will argue with me on this, and many have signs to the effect of "Any damage while on our lot is your problem" Fact is when they sign the rig in for service they assume all responsibility and thus no portion of YOUR insurance covers it.. That's why they have insurance.
So your insurance may pay for a lawyer.. That's about all.
Not that laws do vary from state to state
Trust me on this....and 55+ years in the casualty insurance business..There is no "res ipsa loquator" ("Let The Facts Speak For Itself") case that can be made to support what is said above by this poster. Common law prevails and that means that there must be a degree of negligence shown in order to hold that a service shop is automatically responsible for damage to goods left in their care.
As a policyholder, you will always be given the opportunity to proceed with repairs to a vehicle (left in a shop) and ever obligated to await a decision from the shop owner's insurer. Comprehensive and Collision are "First Party" (YOU) coverages and they're not voided when you go into a shop where damage occurs.
When I first posted, I commented on the fact that there are some who believe that the shop owner is absolutely responsible and...with wa8yxm's post...here's quick evidence of the way some folks interpret insurance and shop responsibility.
There's so many strong reasons why you should consider relying on YOUR insurance and not rely on the fact that all shops have insurance (THEY DON'T) to take care of "all" those things that go bump in the night.
This isn't a matter of concern for me as I'm retired from all that stuff but saw many examples of anything that can happen in a repair shop. I'd like to sound like I have a reasonable point of view but I won't complain if wa8yxm wants to try to rework how insurance actually operates. I was a claims manager for a national insurer and my specialty (later) as an insurance broker was in commercial lines. Commercial lines are things like boatyards, auto repair centers and the like....but, you know, I retired 1 1/2 years ago and all that stuff may have changed by now. Let's ask wa8yxm and I hope he has the answer.
RE: Class A insurance
Jim, having no idea what loss was described, it would be impossible to determine which insurance coverage would be correct. If something occured while left for service with a shop, the coverage that would respond would be no different that had the loss occured away from that shop....if the rig was hit (collision) by another rig, it would be Collision Coverage....if the rig was involved in a fire, then it would be Comprehensive. The rig owner's insurer would then determine whether the shop was in any way responsible (negligence) and subrogate their loss against the shop. Consider that if there was no degree of negligence, the shop would be clear. There is a notion, and it seems to be gaining favor when discussed, that "anything" that occurs while a rig or vessel is left in the ccare of others becomes the responsibility of that third party. If, however, a fire that spreads to that service premises from a neighboring property, the service shop isn't going to be held liable. The shop is required to provide normal care and that could be "normal" for security or safekeeping standards.
So far as which deductible would apply, that's dependent upon which coverage applies to the loss.
Now, had the loss in question been due to clumsy workmanship and did not involve a "Named Peril" for coverage provided, then there's going to be no claim under the rig owner's insurance policy.
I'm a retired insurance broker but the above is what I'd have told my client under these circumstances. If you can provide a more detailed "what if?" scenerio, then I can amend my answer accordingly.
RE: Looking for short-term (3 days) insurance on rented pop-up
What about an umbrella policy with your carrier? Would that cover any damage to the popup that might happen while you are using it? Then get the liability through the pup rental place.
Most Personal Umbrella Liability policies have a "corridor deductible" of (usually) $10,000 for those exposures where no primary coverage is purchased. That "gap" is what the policyholder must pay if there's no coverage. Keep in mind, too, that the trailer in this case is property in the care, custody and control of the insured and most Umbrella policies don't provide coverage for that type of claim.
So far as the liability coverage, most Personal Auto policies already provide (at no add'l cost) liability for anything you tow. That doesn't prevent many folks from purchasing the coverage from rental offices as they simply don't realize that they're already covered.
RE: Looking for short-term (3 days) insurance on rented pop-up
As a retired insurance broker, I still recall one of the first things you learn when you begin life as a broker...."You can insure the $50 bale of hay when a windstorm is upon you...and the cost will be $49.95"
The fact is that the experienced insurance agent that you talked to knows of a source for coverage (Surplus Lines Insurers) but it will take time and effort to work with that insurer and it will normally end up with your wanting to reject the whole idea. Ask your friend if he'd made an inquiry to Surplus Lines. There's several hundred insurers who offer specialty and "hard to place" situations and he undoubtedly has the book that lists those insurers. Oh, by the way, most of those insurers have _AT LEAST_ $500 minimum earned premium(s) to provide their coverage.
The worst part of what you'd like to see happen is that you want coverage for only 3 days. Any insurance agent or broker would want to reserve time (to work on a nuisance like that) only for a very profitable client. Yes, I'm admitting that insurance guys want to make a profit on their effort.
There are also a number of Standard auto insurers who provide comp and collision coverage on rented autos or trailers but it may be necessary to rewrite your coverage. If your agent is an independent who represents several insurers, that could be a solution.
Just remember that the cost for the insurance may, in itself, be a deal breaker.....like the cost of insuring that bale of hay when the wind is gusting.
RE: Let My Neighbor Borrow/Rent My TT?
As a recently retired insurance broker, my first thoughts still focus upon "who's covering what?"....and you'll find that many policies do NOT cover property rented to others. That means that _you_ don't have Collision or Comprehensive coverage on YOUR rig if you rent it out. My own policy (and I'm careful about what kind of insurance I buy) has that exclusion....but it's OK with me as I'd never be responsive to anybody who wanted to borrow or rent my rig. The other guy isn't going to be able to buy this coverage unless there's a formal rental agreement obligating him to provide this type of insurance coverage.
So far as Liability coverage, he may be able to respond (if he has insurance) but is there enough (Liability Limits) to protect YOU if the lawsuit names you? If you haven't a written Indemnity Provision in your rental agreement, it could be a real "can of worms" for you, the "nice guy" who apparently is bent to make sure your neighbor pal has a nice weekend.
There are so many things that could go wrong...even things beyond his control and presumeably things that aren't directly caused by his negligence...then you begin to become alert to what it's really all about when good intentions go awry. Like the coach said, "there are seven things that can happen when you throw the football and six of them are bad."
RE: Cost of Insuring (2009, Roo 233)
Do you have a Homeowner Policy? If so, that policy would cover your personal effects when you're away from home. Normally, at least 10% of the limit on your home's personal effects limit would apply to that kind of situation, and some insurers provide (automatically) more than 10%.
RE: NEED LAS VEGAS RV STORAGE INFO
There is not a lot of vacant storage here since almost all the new subdivisions are HOA and CC&R "jungles" that require owners to store RVs in some other place. As far a notoriously being known for break ins, I don't know where that comes from. In ten years no one has broken into any storage facility I used. It may be because the people watch their clientele and also use working alarms systems with lasers.
Frank
Frank, so far as the source of information on theft from storage yards, I recently retired as a commercial lines insurance broker. Las Vegas storage yards are among the group recognized by insurers who specialize in insuring storage yards as having many more losses than "average"....and the crime stats in Las Vegas seem to point to the fact that it's a general problem even beyond the storage yards. So far as what prompts the losses inside the storage yards, most of the "casing" seems to be done by folks who are either invitees or customers of those storage yards. There are also obvious differences in the security offered by different facilities. When you boil it down to what's important, the adequate amount of personal property insurance of what one leaves stored in their rig is tantamount to how "safe" you're going to feel. Read your rental agreement, Frank, and you'll find that your storage yard is not going to admit responsibility. It's your risk alone.
RE: NEED LAS VEGAS RV STORAGE INFO
Las Vegas has a notorious reputation for RV storage space breakins. I'd want to be assured that security was top-notch and so the cost of storage would be of secondary importance. Make sure that your personal property insurance coverage matches the value of what you'd be leaving behind when your rig was stored.
RE: TOAD insurance
(as a recently retired insurance broker) please understand that the _only_ coverage extended to a toad from the vehicle that pulls that toad will be LIABILITY. There is no...absolutely no...Collision or Comprehensive automatically extended to the toad. The same coverage that is purchased on the toad for use when it's detached will be the same coverage that covers when it's being towed.
This isn't something that varies by territory....no insurer will provide "free" coverage that covers an owned toad. Yes, there is certain coverages that extend to a temporary substitute and/or a borrowed or rented vehicle, but that is scarcely a likely scenerio for a toad.
Yes, check and verify with your own agent or broker, but he/she will agree with my summary above.
I've received an email that seems to require a further explanation. If you have purchased Comprehensive and Collision coverage on your toad...then you will have coverage while it's being towed. If you have not purchased this coverage, then your only coverage (extended from the towing motorhome) will be LIABILITY ONLY.
RE: TOAD insurance
(as a recently retired insurance broker) please understand that the _only_ coverage extended to a toad from the vehicle that pulls that toad will be LIABILITY. There is no...absolutely no...Collision or Comprehensive automatically extended to the toad. The same coverage that is purchased on the toad for use when it's detached will be the same coverage that covers when it's being towed.
This isn't something that varies by territory....no insurer will provide "free" coverage that covers an owned toad. Yes, there is certain coverages that extend to a temporary substitute and/or a borrowed or rented vehicle, but that is scarcely a likely scenerio for a toad.
Yes, check and verify with your own agent or broker, but he/she will agree with my summary above.
